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Episode 111 · Enterprise · 44 min

Respect needs scale, scale needs software

India's HR services market has gone from roughly ₹8,000 crore in the mid-2000s to ₹2 lakh crore today, still compounding at 10-12% a year, and thousands of recruitment firms still leave clients unhappy. CIEL HR's wager is that the winner will be whoever delivers the same output in every city, which turns a people business into a software problem. Nine years and 3,000 customers later, the pre-IPO rounds are closing.

Hiring & talent SaaS & enterprise Founder journey

Aditya Mishra

Co-founder & CEO, CIEL HR · with Vishal Krishna

43:37

Said in this episode

▶ 12:07

₹2L cr

Size of India's HR services market

Aditya's figure for the industry today, still growing about 10-12% a year, a rate he calls unusual for any sector.

▶ 12:27

₹8–10k cr

What the same market was worth in 2005-08

His recollection from the Ma Foi years; the host's guess of ₹5,000-6,000 crore was revised up on air.

▶ 22:38

3,000+

Customers CIEL HR serves today

Against a first fifty-to-hundred that he calls the most challenging selling of the whole journey.

▶ 24:46

22%

Share of business from the top 20 customers

His evidence for a well-spread portfolio running from SMEs to large corporates rather than a few anchor accounts.

▶ 37:23

Countries Ma Foi operated in

The previous avatar's footprint, now the template for CIEL's plan to enter at least five global markets where relationships already exist.

▶ 21:45

₹1,000 cr+

Scale the host attributes to the company now

Vishal Krishna's aside while recalling the bootstrapped early office; Aditya does not state a revenue figure himself, so treat it as the host's framing.

The brief

The argument in sixty seconds

Mishra's claim is that Indian HR services has never been short of suppliers, since thousands of recruitment firms already existed in 2015, only short of anyone who could be present across the country and deliver the same output twice. That is the gap he and Ma Foi's founder K Pandiarajan went after, in an industry then growing 10-12% a year, under a tagline that reads as a strategy: HR inspired by science. To be the most respected company you first have to be large, and to be large and consistent you have to push the repetitive parts into technology. Nine years on, CIEL sells recruitment and flexi staffing, talent assessment and leadership development, a campus platform, an HRMS with payroll and compliance, and advisory (platforms as SaaS, people-heavy work as expertise riding a platform) to 3,000-plus customers, with the top twenty accounting for no more than 22% of revenue. The restart was harder than the veterans expected: a new brand nobody knew, senior people going hands-on again after years of not doing so, investors who priced tech-enabled services below apps, and candidates who saw the bootstrapped office and never came back. Now the argument compounds. Bots already sift the candidate database so recruiters spend their hours on judgement; generative AI is creating fresh demand for talent even as it deletes administrative work; and a concluded private placement plus pre-IPO rounds are funding acquisitions ahead of a listing in the financial year about to start, and expansion into at least five overseas markets.

Worth your time if you are

CHROs choosing between one vendor and twenty

Second-time founders restarting without a famous brand

Recruiters wondering what the bots leave them to do

Investors sizing India's ₹2 lakh crore HR services market

EV and agritech operators who cannot hire engineers

Episode map

Where the conversation travels

Every block is a chapter, coloured by what it's about. Click any of it to jump straight to that minute on YouTube.

Hiring & talentSaaS & enterpriseFounder journeyGCCs & servicesAI & machine learningSales, GTM & growth

01Cold open: L&T, Ma Foi, Randstad, restart 0:00 Vishal frames HR as India's story and introduces the original gangsters of the business, before Aditya retraces 1992-99 at L&T, the seduction of the word 'manager' that took him to Ma Foi as the sixth or seventh person in a branch, the Randstad acquisition, and the 2013-14 itch to start again. 02The whole value stream, in one bouquet 3:55 The full spectrum laid out: full-time recruitment and flexi staffing, a tech-led assessment and leadership-development business acquired 15-16 months earlier, a campus platform for colleges, HRMS with payroll and compliance outsourcing, advisory, and a learning-experience platform acquisition about to be announced. 03SaaS where it scales, service where it doesn't 7:55 The stakeholder map runs from candidates and talent-acquisition managers to CHROs, students and college faculty, and the business model splits cleanly: the platforms sell as SaaS, while recruitment, staffing and consulting sell as expertise riding a tech platform. 04Bouquet for the small, a wedge for the big 10:15 Startups and mid-sized firms want end-to-end from one vendor because juggling many drains them; large companies already have vendor networks, so CIEL lands in one service, proves the value, and expands piece by piece. 05From ₹8,000 crore to ₹2 lakh crore 11:51 The market Aditya sized at ₹8,000-10,000 crore in the 2005-08 Ma Foi years is now ₹2 lakh crore and still compounding at 10-12% a year, a rate he calls abnormal for any industry sector. 06Two bets in 2015, and a tagline 13:25 An engineer who in 1992 didn't think IT was even a sector spots the same signal in HR, plus a second gap: thousands of recruitment firms, still-unhappy clients, and nobody pan-India with consistent quality, which is what 'HR inspired by science' is meant to fix. 07The first hundred customers were the hardest 15:35 Legacy didn't transfer: a new brand to explain, a market full of failed restarts, senior people who hadn't worked hands-on for years, then a first assignment hiring junior logistics executives for an early EV company, with the founder personally walking the candidate to the client. 08Younger buyers, and money that wanted apps 18:32 By 2015 the buyer was a technology person, often far younger, asking how data solves it, and capital was no easier, because a tech-led services company is not an app, while bootstrapped facilities quietly cost them candidates who came, looked, and never turned up. 09Reinvention at twenty-four years in 21:45 Asked how a veteran re-earns credibility with a younger audience, Aditya's answer is style rather than tactics: listen, build trust, establish worth by the work rather than tall claims. The firm ends up able to sell software, service, or both. 10Low-hanging fruit is not the sweetest 23:28 Knowing enterprise sales cycles are long, they chased both cohorts deliberately rather than betting on either, and the top 20 customers now contribute no more than 22% of business. The only client worth walking away from is the one who won't admit they don't know what they want. 11Why sunrise sectors get their own vertical 26:45 EV is run separately from manufacturing because sunrise sectors share three defects (unclarity, scarce talent, no established norms) and agri shows the pattern: field teams to teach farmers, techies who would rather join a Microsoft than an agri-input firm, and leadership hires. 12EV shop floors and IT's next modernisation 29:45 Assessment and development, once the preserve of a few multinationals, is now bought broadly; EV demand runs from diploma engineers on production lines and charging-infrastructure technicians up to design teams and top leadership; and IT keeps growing because digitised companies now need generative AI on top. 13Bots on the database, humans on judgement 32:12 Bots already manage CIEL's own candidate database and surface matches so recruiters spend their time assessing people and their aspirations. Early days, he insists, but job losses will happen for sure, which is why the degree that once covered thirty years no longer does. 14Private placement, pre-IPO, then the listing 34:51 One private placement is concluded and pre-IPO rounds are running, largely equity against a maintained debt-equity ratio, with the money going into acquisitions that complement existing strengths and an IPO planned for the financial year about to begin, for fresh capital rather than promoter exit. 15Fourteen countries once, five markets next 37:23 Ma Foi's old 14-country footprint becomes the template: CIEL is already exporting services through acquired HR-tech firms serving international clients, is evaluating overseas acquisitions, and targets at least five global markets, while insisting India alone is large enough, and that nothing is ever on autopilot. 16Ancient texts, chatbots, and listening 40:04 The personal close: Indian philosophy learned from teachers since childhood, a conviction that answers to modern problems sit in ancient texts, generative AI used to reach them in snippets he doesn't always trust, and a career spent watching human behaviour, closing on 3,000 customers as the only self-assessment he'll offer.

Timeline

The arc, briefly

One career inside Indian HR services, and a market that grew twentyfold around it.

1992-99Seven years at L&T. He graduates as an engineer in 1992 from a class that does not count IT as an industry sector, then works across different parts of a company where hundreds of engineers sit on one floor.

1999He joins Ma Foi. An MBA and the pull of the word manager take him to a growing firm where he is the sixth or seventh person in the Kolkata branch.

2005-08An ₹8,000 to ₹10,000 crore market. That is what he and his colleagues called the whole of Indian HR services in the Ma Foi years. Vishal's guess of ₹5,000 to ₹6,000 crore gets revised up on air.

2013-14The itch to start again. Ma Foi has been acquired by Randstad, which runs the business on a very different approach, and he decides it is time to build something once more. Pandiarajan listens to the story.

2015CIEL HR starts, on two readings of the market. HR services is growing 10 to 12% a year, and thousands of recruitment companies exist while clients stay unhappy because nobody is pan-India and consistent. The tagline, HR inspired by science, is the answer to the second one.

2015+The first hundred customers are the hardest part. A brand nobody recognised, a market with plenty of experienced people who had restarted and failed, senior leaders going hands-on after years of not doing so, and investors who priced a tech-led services company below an app. The bootstrapped office quietly cost them candidates who came, looked and never turned up.

Today₹2 lakh crore, and 3,000 customers. The market is roughly twenty times what he sized it at in the Ma Foi years and still compounds 10 to 12% a year. CIEL's top twenty customers account for no more than 22% of the business, and bots now sift its own candidate database so recruiters spend their hours on judgement.

2024-25A listing in the financial year that starts in a few days. One private placement is concluded and three pre-IPO rounds are running, largely equity against a maintained debt-equity ratio, with the money going into acquisitions rather than a promoter exit. Ma Foi's old fourteen-country footprint becomes the template for at least five overseas markets.

Takeaways

Ideas to carry out of this hour

Respect is a size problem before it is a service problem

The tagline 'HR inspired by science' works as the operating logic. Aditya's chain of reasoning runs: we want to be the most respected company in this industry; you are respected only when you are large and your service quality is consistent; being large means many people across many geographies, which is exactly where consistency breaks. The only way out is to push the repetitive parts of the process into technology so the same output comes out of every branch, which is how a people business ends up being run as a software problem.

▶ 14:45 ▶ 15:03 ▶ 15:20

The market grew twentyfold; the complaint didn't change

In the mid-2000s Aditya's industry called itself an ₹8,000-10,000 crore market; today he puts it at ₹2 lakh crore, still growing 10-12% a year, which he notes is not normal for an industry sector. Yet the second half of the 2015 thesis was that thousands of recruitment companies existed and clients still weren't happy, because almost nobody was genuinely pan-India with consistent service across all touchpoints. Growth attracted entrants; it did not produce a national standard.

▶ 12:07 ▶ 13:11 ▶ 14:15

A restart with a legacy is still a restart

The team knew how to do the work. The hard part was the first hundred customers. CIEL was a brand nobody recognised, the market had enough examples of experienced people restarting and failing, and this time the promise included technology the founders had to deliver personally. Leaders who hadn't worked hands-on for years came back to it: the first client assignment was junior logistics hiring for an early EV company, and Aditya went in person to help the candidate reach the client.

▶ 16:18 ▶ 17:09 ▶ 17:45

Tech-enabled services get priced below apps

Capital was one of the three founding challenges, and the reason was narrative. CIEL was not a tech company in the conventional sense, because a tech-led services company is not an app, and this was exactly the moment when younger HR-tech startups were raising freely. Bootstrapping had a second-order cost he only diagnosed later: candidates would come in for interviews, look at the facility, and simply not turn up again.

▶ 20:26 ▶ 20:44 ▶ 21:30

Sell the bouquet to the small, a wedge to the large

Two motions, chosen from experience rather than doctrine. Startups and mid-sized firms have no processes to manage many vendors, so they take the full bouquet and grow inside it. Large firms already have vendor networks and norms, so CIEL enters on one piece of work, establishes value, then expands. Knowing enterprise cycles are slow, the team refused to put all its energy into either the low-hanging or the high-hanging fruit. The result is a portfolio where the top twenty customers are no more than 22% of business.

▶ 10:31 ▶ 11:21 ▶ 24:46

Sunrise sectors are staffing problems by definition

Any new sector arrives with three deficits: unclear roles, scarce talent and no established norms. That is precisely why CIEL runs EV as its own vertical rather than a line inside manufacturing, and why agritech gets one too. The agri brief is a good illustration: armies of field staff to educate farmers, technologists to digitise processes, and leadership hires. The middle one is the bind: a good techie will take Accenture, Infosys, Microsoft or Google over an agri-input company, so somebody has to source them for fixed periods instead.

▶ 27:00 ▶ 27:17 ▶ 28:56

AI takes the administration; the judgement is the job

CIEL has deployed bots on its own candidate database to pull out matches, so a recruiter's hours go into assessing candidates, understanding the client's need and reading the candidate's aspirations, the three-way match a bot can't make. Aditya calls this very early days, but is blunt that a lot of job losses will happen, for sure. The corollary he pushes back to schools and parents: the era when one university degree carried you thirty years is over, and continuous learning has to replace it.

▶ 32:30 ▶ 33:50 ▶ 34:22

The IPO is for buying, not for exiting

One private placement is done and pre-IPO rounds are underway, largely equity with a little debt, against a debt-equity ratio the company deliberately maintains. The money is for inorganic growth: acquisitions that complement existing strengths, including a learning-experience platform about to be announced and overseas targets under discussion. The listing planned for the coming financial year is framed the same way: fresh capital into the company for scale-up, not promoters diluting out.

▶ 35:06 ▶ 35:43 ▶ 37:07

The numbers, drawn

What the episode measures

Every figure below was said on air, with timestamps included and caveats kept.

India's HR services market, as he sizes it

₹ crore

As stated in conversation: the industry was described as ₹8,000-10,000 crore around 2005-08 (midpoint shown) against ₹2 lakh crore today, compounding at 10-12% a year.▶ 12:27

No anchor account

where the revenue sits, across 3,000-plus customers

As stated in conversation, the top 20 customers 'don't really give more than 22%' of business. Aditya's point is that the spread was chosen: enterprise sales cycles are long, so the team refused to put all its energy into either end.▶ 24:46

From respect down to software, one step at a time

the chain of reasoning behind the tagline, in his order

Aditya's own sequence, and the reason a people business ends up being run as a software problem. The tagline he and Pandiarajan picked in 2015 was HR inspired by science.▶ 14:45

What a sunrise sector is short of

the three deficits he says EV and agritech both arrive with

His reason for running EV as its own vertical instead of a line inside manufacturing, and for giving agritech one too. A good technologist will take Accenture, Infosys, Microsoft or Google over an agri-input company, so somebody has to source them on fixed terms instead.▶ 27:00

Worth keeping

Lines that stay

Our tagline is HR inspired by science. We said we would become one of the most respected companies — but you are respected only when you are large in size and your service quality is consistent.

▶ 14:45

We started plucking the low-hanging fruits first. We know that low-hanging fruits are not the sweetest — it's a journey, so I have to keep trying for the high-hanging fruit too.

▶ 24:17

It becomes annoying only when somebody refuses to acknowledge that they don't know what they want — and doesn't value what you are bringing to the table.

▶ 25:54

AI and humans have to work together, and they will work together. But the fact is a lot of job losses will happen. That's for sure.

▶ 33:50

Gone are the days when a university degree was good enough to pursue thirty years of your life happily.

▶ 34:22

Clips that travel

Short on time? Start here

Investors sizing India's HR services market

From ₹8,000 crore to ₹2 lakh crore

The market's twentyfold re-rating, why 10-12% compounding is abnormal, and the two gaps that made a second startup worth starting.

11:51 → 15:35 · 4 min ▶ Watch clip

Second-time founders restarting without a famous brand

The hundred customers that nearly broke a veteran

A new brand nobody knew, leaders going hands-on again, buyers half their age, and capital that only wanted apps.

15:35 → 21:45 · 6 min ▶ Watch clip

Sales leaders balancing SME volume against enterprise cycles

Low-hanging fruit is not the sweetest

The portfolio maths behind a top-20 concentration of 22%, and the one client he would now decline.

23:28 → 26:45 · 3 min ▶ Watch clip

EV and agritech operators who cannot hire engineers

Why EV gets a vertical of its own

Sunrise sectors defined by unclear roles and missing norms, plus the techie who would rather join Microsoft than an agri-input company.

26:45 → 29:45 · 3 min ▶ Watch clip

Recruiters wondering what the bots leave them to do

Bots on the database, an IPO on the calendar

Automation inside his own recruiting floor, the blunt job-loss admission, and the private placement funding acquisitions before a listing.

32:12 → 37:23 · 5 min ▶ Watch clip

Glossary

The jargon, unpacked

Flexi staffing

Supplying people for a fixed period on the staffing firm's payroll rather than the client's own rolls: one of the two ways CIEL provides talent, alongside full-time placement.

HRMS

Human resource management system: the software of record for payroll, attendance, leave and statutory compliance; CIEL sells its own as SaaS and will also run it for you as a managed service.

Talent assessment

Measuring an employee's potential rather than past performance, to decide who is worth developing. It is the core of the tech-led leadership-development business CIEL acquired about 15-16 months before this conversation.

Tech-led services

A services business where a platform absorbs the repetitive work and people supply the judgement. It is the category investors kept pricing below pure app companies when CIEL was raising.

Sunrise sector

A young, fast-growing industry such as EV or agritech, marked by unclear roles, scarce talent and no established norms, which is exactly why a staffing firm builds a dedicated vertical for it.

Private placement / pre-IPO round

A capital raise from selected investors ahead of a public listing; CIEL has closed one placement and is running pre-IPO rounds, largely equity, to fund acquisitions.

CHRO

Chief human resources officer: with talent-management leaders, the buyer for most of what CIEL sells, while the campus platform sells to colleges and their faculty instead.

Connections

If this resonated, go here next

EP 106 · Enterprise

Full transcript

The whole conversation, searchable

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